ID-FRONTIERS for April 13-19, 2008

Messages are displayed in the order they were received.  Subject  From  Date   Time   hello   Ryan Brady    Sun, 13 Apr 2008   3:21pm   sorry for spam   Ryan Brady    Sun, 13 Apr 2008   3:56pm   Eurasian Collared-Dove - South Dakota Record prior to 1996?   Alfred Adamo    Mon, 14 Apr 2008   2:06pm   Re: Eurasian Collared-Dove - South Dakota Record prior to 1996?   Matt Sharp    Tue, 15 Apr 2008   10:10am   Re: Eurasian Collared-Dove - South Dakota Record prior to 1996?   Geoff Malosh    Tue, 15 Apr 2008   4:51pm   Re: Eurasian Collared-Dove - South Dakota Record prior to 1996?   Chris Elphick    Tue, 15 Apr 2008   5:08pm   Re: Eurasian Collared Dove - 1st South Dakota Record?   Alfred Adamo    Tue, 15 Apr 2008   6:14pm   Dances With Wolves doves   Bill Pranty    Tue, 15 Apr 2008   7:47pm   Elegant-type tern in TX   Michael L. P. Retter   Tue, 15 Apr 2008   8:41pm   Dances with Doves   tony gallucci    Wed, 16 Apr 2008   7:24am   House Wren subspecies   Ian A. McLaren   Thu, 17 Apr 2008   1:33pm   Willet ID   Magill Weber    Fri, 18 Apr 2008   4:52pm   Matsudaira's Storm Petrel   DJ Lauten and KACast   Sat, 19 Apr 2008   12:10pm   Re: Willet ID   Kevin T. Karlson   Sat, 19 Apr 2008   1:32pm   Re: Willet ID   Brendan Fogarty    Sat, 19 Apr 2008   8:31pm

To use email addresses replace '(AT)' with '@'. This is done to confuse the spam 'bots.

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Subject: hello
From: Ryan Brady <ryanbrady10(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 13 Apr 2008 3:21pm

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Subject: sorry for spam
From: Ryan Brady <ryanbrady10(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 13 Apr 2008 3:56pm

My apologies once again for the spam message you recently received from me.
Someone obviously picked up my email and sent a message to my entire address
book...again.

Ryan Brady
Grand View, Bayfield County, WI
http://www.pbase.com/rbrady

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Subject: Eurasian Collared-Dove - South Dakota Record
         prior to 1996?
From: Alfred Adamo <alfred.adamo(AT)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 14 Apr 2008 2:06pm

I apologize if this has been brought up before but I didn't find any
discussion thread on this subject in the archives.

While watching the movie "Dances with Wolves", two apparent Eurasian
Collared-Doves were present in the abandoned fort when Col. Dunbar
(Kevin Costner) entered it for the first time (in the movie).  Besides
being an obvious anachronism, if these are wild birds and they may
very well be, this may a candidate for an earlier first record for
South Dakota.

According to figure 4c in the Romagosa and McEneaney article in North
American Birds, June - July 1999, the first record of Eurasian
Collared-Doves in South Dakota was not until 1996.

One bird appeared to flush at the beginning the scene while the second
afforded longer views before also flying off.  I am positive of the ID
after freeze framing and replaying the senes on a 40" HDTV monitor.
The movie was broadcast in HD.

From the film credits and from some internet research I determined the
following:

1.  The location of the "fort" and most of the scenes in the movie
were in South Dakota.  I believe that the fort
     was located on a ranch near Ft. Pierre.
2.  The time of year appeared to be early summer (from the state and
maturity of the vegetation).
2.  The film was released in November 1990 but I couldn't determine
when the shooting took place but
     presumably this would have been during 1989 and or 1990.
3.  While animal trainers were listed in the credits there were no
bird/dove trainers listed.  Don't laugh - one
     film I watched before had a 'gull' trainer listed in the credits.

It appears plausible that in such a sparsely populated area the doves
could have been easily missed prior to that date.  An abandoned wooden
structure, whether built for the movie or already present, would
present an attractive roosting site in a location with few trees or
buildings.

The doves did not appear tame, in fact they appeared to flush either
immediately with the first bird, or soon after with the second bird,
upon entry of Kevin Costner in the 'fort'.

I see little reason from the plot or setting of the movie for the
deliberate presence of doves at the location (unless it was to
emphasize the abandoned nature of the 'fort').  I would think then
that Rock Doves or Ringed Turtle-Doves would be more likely
candidates.

To conclude, if these birds could be proven, or at least pass a
records committee judgement ruling on their wild origin, then this
coincidental sighting could pre-date the previous documented first
record of Eurasian Collared-Dove in South Dakota by at least 6 years.

Comments please?  And yes, at present I have too much time on my hands!

Alfred Adamo
Woodbridge, ON, Canada

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Subject: Re: Eurasian Collared-Dove - South Dakota Record
         prior to 1996?
From: Matt Sharp <gentrysharp(AT)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 15 Apr 2008 10:10am

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While this would be a great way to find a new state bird but I think it
would be a sketchy
record at best.

I vaguely remember a thread here several years back regarding birds in
movies
and TV and one of the tidbits that came to light was that it was illegal
under the
Migratory Bird Treaty to intentionally use native birds for filming - hence
the frequency
of non-native stand-ins.

Obviously this does not prevent the filming of natives under "natural
conditions"
so the possibility exists that these birds were there under their own agency
but
other than a definitive answer from the film makers it seems it would be
hard to
prove.

It also brings up an interesting lead on a potential source of introduction
via hollywood.

Matt

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Subject: Re: Eurasian Collared-Dove - South Dakota Record
         prior to 1996?
From: Geoff Malosh <pomarine(AT)EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: 15 Apr 2008 4:51pm

Funny coincidence. I too sat through Dances With Wolves twice last month as
it was endlessly repeated on the Encore suite of cable channels, having not
seen the film for several years, and I caught the Eurasian Collared-Dove
scene this time around as well, having missed it before. But my immediate
reaction was different. I immediately took the typical birder's reaction
that it was just another bird-related Hollywood gaffe. "Fat chance of seeing
Eurasian Collared-Doves on the high plains in the 1860's!" was an
approximate comment I made aloud to my wife during one viewing. I never
considered that the Dances With Wolves birds might actually have been wild
doves serendipitously caught on film by the crew. Movie sets are pretty busy
areas; wild birds probably wouldn't tolerate all the activity very well. Add
to that Matt Sharp's point about the rules regarding intentional use of
native birds on movie sets, and I think that in the absence of contrary info
directly from the filmmakers (anything is possible, after all), these doves
are best chalked up as another careless Hollywood producer trying to pass
off a pigeon as a crane, so to speak. (And this is not said in jest, I
remember a TV show once long ago, I really wish I could remember which,
where Sandhill Cranes were shown on screen but the cooing of pigeons --
PIGEONS!! -- was dubbed in. They'd have done just as well to have shown
Lassie bleating like a barnyard goat. But I digress.)
 
Regards,
Geoff

Geoff Malosh | Editor, Pennsylvania Birds 
450 Amherst Avenue | Moon Township, PA 15108-2654 | 412.735.3128  
pomarine(AT)earthlink.net | http://home.earthlink.net/~pomarine/index.html 
=========================================================================== 
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-----Original Message-----
From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Alfred Adamo
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 4:57 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Eurasian Collared-Dove - South Dakota Record prior to
1996?

I apologize if this has been brought up before but I didn't find any
discussion thread on this subject in the archives.

While watching the movie "Dances with Wolves", two apparent Eurasian
Collared-Doves were present in the abandoned fort when Col. Dunbar
(Kevin Costner) entered it for the first time (in the movie).  Besides
being an obvious anachronism, if these are wild birds and they may
very well be, this may a candidate for an earlier first record for
South Dakota.

According to figure 4c in the Romagosa and McEneaney article in North
American Birds, June - July 1999, the first record of Eurasian
Collared-Doves in South Dakota was not until 1996.

One bird appeared to flush at the beginning the scene while the second
afforded longer views before also flying off.  I am positive of the ID
after freeze framing and replaying the senes on a 40" HDTV monitor.
The movie was broadcast in HD.

From the film credits and from some internet research I determined the
following:

1.  The location of the "fort" and most of the scenes in the movie
were in South Dakota.  I believe that the fort
     was located on a ranch near Ft. Pierre.
2.  The time of year appeared to be early summer (from the state and
maturity of the vegetation).
2.  The film was released in November 1990 but I couldn't determine
when the shooting took place but
     presumably this would have been during 1989 and or 1990.
3.  While animal trainers were listed in the credits there were no
bird/dove trainers listed.  Don't laugh - one
     film I watched before had a 'gull' trainer listed in the credits.

It appears plausible that in such a sparsely populated area the doves
could have been easily missed prior to that date.  An abandoned wooden
structure, whether built for the movie or already present, would
present an attractive roosting site in a location with few trees or
buildings.

The doves did not appear tame, in fact they appeared to flush either
immediately with the first bird, or soon after with the second bird,
upon entry of Kevin Costner in the 'fort'.

I see little reason from the plot or setting of the movie for the
deliberate presence of doves at the location (unless it was to
emphasize the abandoned nature of the 'fort').  I would think then
that Rock Doves or Ringed Turtle-Doves would be more likely
candidates.

To conclude, if these birds could be proven, or at least pass a
records committee judgement ruling on their wild origin, then this
coincidental sighting could pre-date the previous documented first
record of Eurasian Collared-Dove in South Dakota by at least 6 years.

Comments please?  And yes, at present I have too much time on my hands!

Alfred Adamo
Woodbridge, ON, Canada

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Subject: Re: Eurasian Collared-Dove - South Dakota Record
         prior to 1996?
From: Chris Elphick <elphick(AT)SBCGLOBAL.NET>
Date: 15 Apr 2008 5:08pm

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One thing to bear in mind, if you choose to assess such records, is that it is
not legal for Hollywood to use captive members of native species in movies (I
think because of the rules in place under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, though
that explanation may not be quite right).  This is, at least in part, why you
often see non-native species, that are clearly wrong, show up in movies -
because those species are except from the regulations, and thus captive
individuals can be used.

This does not, of course, explain the cactus wrens calling in the background of
movies set in the Southeast, or the eagles that sound like red-tailed hawks, but
 it does partially exonerate the movie guys.
 
 Chris

Chris Elphick
Storrs, CT
elphick(AT)sbcglobal.net

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Subject: Re: Eurasian Collared Dove - 1st South Dakota
         Record?
From: Alfred Adamo <alfred.adamo(AT)GMAIL.COM>
Date: 15 Apr 2008 6:14pm

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So the question now appears whether or not Eurasian Collared-Dove was
considered to be, from a federal regulatory point of view, a native species
back in 1989/1990 when this movie was filmed?  I think not ....

However, I still think that the birds were not introduced on the set but had
just happened to be there during the filming.  We will never know for sure
unless we speak to the film crew ....

Alfred Adamo

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Subject: Dances With Wolves doves
From: Bill Pranty <billpranty(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 15 Apr 2008 7:47pm

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Good evening all,
=20
I have always thought that the Fort Sedgewick doves were African Turtle-Dov=
es ("Ringed Turtle-Doves"). The undertail pattern of the first dove seems t=
o show entirely white outer rectrices, and the second dove shows primaries =
the same color of the rest of the wings. The neck on teh second dove also a=
ppears to be longish and slenderish.
=20
Best regards,
=20
Bill Pranty
Bayonet Point, Florida=

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Subject: Elegant-type tern in TX
From: "Michael L. P. Retter" <mlretter(AT)YAHOO.COM>
Date: 15 Apr 2008 8:41pm

Today Benji Schwartz and I came across an Elegant-type
tern at Bolivar Flats on the Upper Texas Coast.  Here
are Benji's photos:

http://birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=111750

I'm traveling right now, so I have no references with
me and am not sure what this bird is.  The photos make
the bird seem slightly larger than the Sandwich, with
a thicker bill and a slight droop, but I don't recall
being struck by any of these in the field.  The bill
also looked uniformly colored in the field--not
pale-tipped.  Unfortunately, the bird was only present
for a couple minutes, and we were leading a Houston
Audubon birdwalk with ~20 people, so I wasn't able to
study it well.  If I were in western Mexico I'd not
think twice about it being an Elegant, but I have no
experience with Cayenne and Lesser Crested Terns, and
I know they can be very tricky.

Any ideas as to its identity and why would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks!

Michael L. P. Retter
---------------------------------
Tour Leader,
Tropical Birding & Birding America
800.348.5941
http://www.tropicalbirding.com/
http://birding-america.com/

W. Lafayette, Tippecanoe Co., IN
mlretter AT yahoo.com
home:  309.277.7136
cell:  309.824.7317
http://retter.xenospiza.com/
-----------------------------------

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Subject: Dances with Doves
From: tony gallucci <hurricanetg(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 16 Apr 2008 7:24am

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

I too have in my notes that the birds in Dances with Wolves are Ringed Turt=
le-Doves (African Ringneck-Doves). It bears noting that Eurasian Collared-D=
oves and Ringed Turtle-Doves were & are common in the cagebird trade. I hav=
e lent a number of my birds for short films (and weddings) -- usually Ringe=
d Turtle-Doves, which are easily recaptured if they escape, but also Eurasi=
ans. I think it would be rare for a trainer/supplier to NOT have these bird=
s available for rent.

For those with a further interest in natural history in the mvoies, i have =
long blogged about what i call biospoilers -- those annoying out of place b=
ird calls and individuals in film. Here are a couple sample posts, includin=
g one that samples this listserv with IDs by ID Frontiers submitters:

http://milkriver.blogspot.com/2005/08/bio-biospoilers-concept.html
http://milkriver.blogspot.com/2005/12/rev-sideways-2004.html
http://milkriver.blogspot.com/2001/09/bio-wild-america-1997.html
http://milkriver.blogspot.com/2001/09/bio-owls-biospoilers-and-other-birds.=
html
http://milkriver.blogspot.com/2001/09/bio-from-world-of-birding-listservs.h=
tml

tony gallucci

milk river film

ingram, kerr county, texas

hurricanetg(AT)hotmail.com

http://milkriver.blogspot.com

http://youtube.com/milkriverfilm

Anything is possible if you don't know what you're talking about . . .

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Subject: House Wren subspecies
From: "Ian A. McLaren" <I.A.McLaren(AT)Dal.Ca>
Date: 17 Apr 2008 1:33pm

All:

I'm confused (not infrequent). Pyle gives "western" subspecies _parkmanii_ as
"back feathers usually with dusky barring" and "eastern" _aedon_ as "back
feathers usually unmarked" and this echoes Phillips' statements. Yet
illustrations in both  Nat. Geogr. and Sibley Guide seem to show the opposite.

Am I missing something?

Cheers, Ian M.

Ian McLaren
Biology Department
Dalhousie University
Halifax, NS Canada B3H 4J1

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Subject: Willet ID
From: Magill Weber <magill_weber(AT)HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: 18 Apr 2008 4:52pm

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Curious to hear any comments on this shorebird, photographed several days a=
go near Anhuac NWR, Texas.  I observed the bird in poor early evening light=
 in a mixed flock of Willets, Whimbrel, and Marbled Godwits, and as the flo=
ck flushed. Roughly Willet sized and shaped, bill consistent with Willet, n=
o good looks at underwings of this individual (blending in with a eastern r=
ace Willet dominated flock). Our initial impression was that the bird had g=
otten into some oil, but in looking at the dark patterning in the photo, cr=
isp facial appearance, and dark under the wings but showing a clean undersi=
de, this would be an unlikely result. The bird was relocated and photograph=
ed the next day (see single photo), but I have no additional information fr=
om that observation, except that it again flushed quickly.  (Classic exampl=
e of shooting photos first, and getting lazy with field notes, particularly=
 around skittish flocks. I'll be the first to take the blame for that one.)=
=20
=20
Note the oddly dark 'ring' around the neck and back (shown in the photograp=
h) and dark legs.  Unfortunately this is the best photo my group has put th=
eir hands on, thus far. I'd appreciate any comments or other observations o=
f this type of molt patterning or dark-necked appearance.  Could this just =
be an oiled bird? Any other explanation?=20
=20
http://badger.smugmug.com/gallery/4745270_mQinj#281142357_GEjne
=20
Thanks,
Magill Weber, Phoenix, AZ
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Subject: Matsudaira's Storm Petrel
From: DJ Lauten and KACastelein <deweysage(AT)VERIZON.NET>
Date: 19 Apr 2008 12:10pm

Hello Folks,

A marine biologist and non-birding friend of ours is on the R/V Melville 
off of Guam somewhere.  He sent me three photos of a storm petrel, 
asking me what it was.  I am no seabird expert, but from the photos I 
believe the bird is a Matsudaira's Storm-Petrel (Oceanodroma 
matsudairae).  I don't have a web page to post these photos too.  I'm 
wondering if anyone might like to post or look at the photos, and 
whether or not anyone knows if this species is common or not in the 
area, or whether the info and location of the birds is of any interest 
to anyone.  Thanks all

Cheers
Dave Lauten
Bandon OR
deweysage(AT)verizon.net

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Subject: Re: Willet ID
From: "Kevin T. Karlson" <karlson3(AT)COMCAST.NET>
Date: 19 Apr 2008 1:32pm

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----INCLUDING text/plain MIME SECTION----

Magill and others,

This is clearly a breeding Eastern Willet of the Gulf Coast form, which
tends to be a bit paler and longer billed than the Atlantic Coast Eastern
Willets. After studying these Eastern Willets in the High Island/Galveston
area for the past seven years in March or April, I have found them to be
generally less heavily marked on the breast and back than the Atlantic E.
Willets that breed near my house in southern NJ. They also tend to have
longer bills overall, and often approach smaller Western Willets in bill
length and shape. 

This bird is either oiled on the neck, or marked with another extraneous
dye, which is not out of the question, considering the oil fields that ring
Anahuac NWR. Both willets feed and bathe in the fresh water pools that are
associated with the oil fields, although I must admit that the coloration
looks fairly restricted to the upper breast and neck, and the bird would be
hard pressed to only get a stain in that area. I often bird the oil fields
near High Island, and have never seen an oiled Eastern Willet there. Maybe
it is an aberration in color or pigment in these areas, but either way, it
is a typical Eastern Willet. 

Kevin Karlson

 

  _____  

From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification
[mailto:BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Magill Weber
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:52 PM
To: BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Willet ID

 

Curious to hear any comments on this shorebird, photographed several days
ago near Anhuac NWR, Texas.  I observed the bird in poor early evening light
in a mixed flock of Willets, Whimbrel, and Marbled Godwits, and as the flock
flushed. Roughly Willet sized and shaped, bill consistent with Willet, no
good looks at underwings of this individual (blending in with a eastern race
Willet dominated flock). Our initial impression was that the bird had gotten
into some oil, but in looking at the dark patterning in the photo, crisp
facial appearance, and dark under the wings but showing a clean underside,
this would be an unlikely result. The bird was relocated and photographed
the next day (see single photo), but I have no additional information from
that observation, except that it again flushed quickly.  (Classic example of
shooting photos first, and getting lazy with field notes, particularly
around skittish flocks. I'll be the first to take the blame for that one.) 
 
Note the oddly dark 'ring' around the neck and back (shown in the
photograph) and dark legs.  Unfortunately this is the best photo my group
has put their hands on, thus far. I'd appreciate any comments or other
observations of this type of molt patterning or dark-necked appearance.
Could this just be an oiled bird? Any other explanation? 
 
http://badger.smugmug.com/gallery/4745270_mQinj#281142357_GEjne
 
Thanks,
Magill Weber, Phoenix, AZ

 

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Subject: Re: Willet ID
From: Brendan Fogarty <birderbf(AT)yahoo.com>
Date: 19 Apr 2008 8:31pm

<table cellspacing='0' cellpadding='0' border='0' ><tr><td style='font:
inherit;'><P>Hello,</P>
<P> </P>
<P>I get the impression of a Marbled Godwit transitioning into breeding plumage
here. The pattern of the "back feathers"(scaps, coverts, tertials) seems too
contrasty for a Willet, and the pale reddish-based beak is also wrong for a
Willet.<BR><BR>Brendan
Fogarty<BR>Hempstead, NY<BR>http://www.flickr.com/photos/birderbf/<BR><BR>Please think of the environment before you print this email.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 4/18/08, Magill Weber <I><magill_weber(AT)HOTMAIL.COM></I></B> wrote:<BR></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Magill Weber
<magill_weber(AT)HOTMAIL.COM><BR>Subject: [BIRDWG01] Willet ID<BR>To:
BIRDWG01(AT)LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU<BR>Date: Friday, April 18, 2008, 7:52 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv1361218303>
<STYLE>
#yiv1361218303 .hmmessage P
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<BLOCKQUOTE>Curious to hear any comments on this shorebird, photographed several
 days ago near Anhuac NWR, Texas.  I observed the bird in poor early
evening light in a mixed flock of Willets, Whimbrel, and Marbled
Godwits, and as the flock flushed. Roughly Willet sized and shaped, bill
consistent with Willet, no good looks at underwings of this individual (blending
 in with a eastern race Willet dominated flock). Our initial impression was that
 the bird had gotten into some oil, but in looking at the dark patterning in the
 photo, crisp facial appearance, and dark under the wings but showing a
clean underside, this would be an unlikely result. The bird was relocated and
photographed the next day (see single photo), but I have no additional
information from that observation, except that it again flushed quickly. 
(Classic example of shooting photos first, and getting lazy with field notes,
particularly around skittish
 flocks. I'll be the first to take the blame for that one.)
<BR> <BR>Note the oddly dark 'ring' around the neck and back (shown in
 the photograph) and dark legs.  Unfortunately this is the best photo my
group has put their hands on, thus far. I'd appreciate any comments or other
observations of this type of molt patterning or dark-necked appearance. 
Could this just be an oiled bird? Any other explanation? <BR> <BR><A
href="http://badger.smugmug.com/gallery/4745270_mQinj#281142357_GEjne"
target=_blank
rel=nofollow>http://badger.smugmug.com/gallery/4745270_mQinj#281142357_GEjne</A><BR> <BR>Thanks,<BR>Magill Weber, Phoenix, AZ<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
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